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This page exists to allow anyone to provide feedback and introduce topics for discussion. Feel free to add a new block or comments anywhere in this page. Please keep your language appropriate - this is not a flame board.

-- FantoM - 12 Jan 2003

-- The following was Posted by FantoM for Imanewbie

I'd like to start out by clarifying something... A few months ago I had so many complaints about Tharsis Gate that I could look at anything and find a fault in it. After I returned from a 2 month break from seriously playing Tharsis I started looking at things differently... Where I used to think that there was a major problem with guild balance, I realized there isn't (not major) and a few other things I thought were wrong with Tharsis (I can't even remember them) weren't really that bad, in fact... I now feel they add to the quality of this game I love. A game like no other, truly original in it's skills, guilds and fun-level. I hope you take my suggestions into serious consideration, because these changes are exactly what Tharsis Gate needs. And there really isn't a lot that needs to be done.

The Guilds
I used to think that Tharsis Gate had huge problem with guild balance... then I decided that if I wanted to make my points I would have to personaly play each guild and know 100% that I was correct... so I started my own druid (as I already had many thieves and stormlord). In a discussion with Mojojojo/Pikachu I came to realize that we have a "perfect" balance for pk guilds... It's like rock, paper, scissors. Stormlord kills druids, Druid kills thieves, Thief kills stormlords. I still need to test this for myself, but from what experienced PKs are telling me, this is the case, thus there is a perfect balance.

I love the guilds in Tharsis Gate... I love their simplicity as well the their originality. Where other muds have Warriors, Priests/Healers/Clerics, and Mages, Tharsis Gate has Thieves, Druids and Stormlords... I love this theme of creative guilds, and I think it's a theme that should be stuck to and followed (Meaning we don't even NEED a warrior guild, we have them already, Thieves!).

We could use at least 2 more guilds in Tharsis Gate however, and I don't see the point in changing the combat system to accomodate Warriors, when instead you could be working on guilds that won't take advantage of the combat system. My suggestions for two new guilds are Necromancer's (which is a replacement for Sorcerers) and Monk's (my suggestion for a creative name for these is Shaolin). I've heard through the grape-vine that the only reason Necromancers wasn't released back in the day when it was planned was you told Pyro to put it on hold until you created mages with sub-guilds...

Which brings me to my next point... what should STAY THE SAME with our guilds. What's so great about the guilds of Tharsis Gate is their complex simplicity. Each guild has it's set of easy to figure out gcommands that each use a variety of skills that the player needs to work to find out, or get info from another player about. So that being said, I'd like to outline what should stay the same...

  1. Guilds should remain seperate from eachother, I don't see the need to follow in the foot-steps of every other MUD on the internet and create sub-guilds and branch-offs from each guild. If I (and the players of Tharsis Gate) wanted sub-guilds we'd all be playing Legend of Dracon, or 3-Kingdoms, or any number of other MUDs all using this worn-out idea.
  2. Guilds should be created using the current systems Tharsis Gate has... Alot more could be achieved if the wizards created guilds using the current combat system and guild system, rather than waiting for the systems to be totaly revamped (which will take YEARS, where a guild can be made in 1 or 2, I've been playing for 3 years now and we're still waiting for the new combat system so warriors can be released)
  3. Any new guilds should continue to be made as original as possible, guilds such as Warriors, Mages, Priests, Clerics, Sorcerers etc. should be avoided as it will ruin the unique "flavour" of the game.

That being said, there are some small tweaks that I think the guilds need to help balance them against MOBs while still holding onto the perfect PK balance of Tharsis Gate.

Everyone claims that Stormlords are way too over-powered... what they fail to realize is that Storms are almost entirely useless indoors until they have very high skills. At the moment I feel that Stormlords are a great guild and should remain the same but possibly putting a damage limit of 200 on icestorm (I've heard rumours of a 300+ damage icestorm, that's just wrong for 15 gp and 2 rounds). The only gcommand I have a problem with is Fry... what's the point? You can't use it indoors and even when you hunt outdoors you can't eat most of the high-level meat, and when you can you're afforded the priviledge of being able to down TWO WHOLE peices of meat or roasts... meat should be be unlimited food for storms, and fry should possibly be allowed indoors.

Thieves are an example of a perfectly balanced guild... they have backstab which does ALOT of damage right away, plus a fast medium damage attack (stab). The problem with thieves is their healing rate... I feel strongly that thieves should have a regen rate similar to that of GP. once they reach a certain hp (lets say 1100) they should be healing at a rate of 4 hp/beat awake, and 7 hp/beat asleep, boosted to 7 hp while awake and drunk, and 10 hp/beat while asleep and drunk... you may be thinking. Why should a guild have anything to do with regen rates... I'll explain... thieves don't use any type of magic like druids and stormlords... therefore a thief would put tons of effort learning how to heal themself without using magic... with dissect they learn things about the body that could be used to help them heal faster... that's why I propose this... against mobs, thieves don't come close to being on par with druids and stormlords... they can kill any of the really big mobs, but then they have to wait for an hour to kill another one. My suggestion is one that can happen within the realm of realism AND balance, as I've described how a thief might achieve this in 'real life', plus it won't upset Tharsis Gate's currently perfect PK balance. Also they should have their named changed to Rogue or Assassin... Thief is too... well... done before.

I used to be under the impression that Druids were totaly weak and needed huge upgrades to be made playable... not anymore. I've since created my own Druid and realized that they just take alot longer to be made strong. However, I feel that a few minor changes should be made. Majordamage and Mediumdamage should be scrapped, and Minordamage should be given a cooler and shorter name (I suggest channel). And heals should be slightly upgraded to accomodate the "healing only" theme of druids. What I'm suggesting is just a minor tweak to heals... Majorheal should have a boost of a possible 50 more hp than it currently heals, Mediumheal should have a boost of a possible 25 more hp than it currently heals and Minorheal should have a boost of a possible 10 more hp than it currently heals (all based on maximum heals approx 300 for major, 150 for medium and 30ish for minor currently). Another viable option rather than an HP tweak, would be to speed up the heal commands, and/or make them a cheaper GP cost. Also there should be a limit on the ammount of animals Druids can summon at one time... anywhere between 5-10 would be a good place to set to limit.

*But why necros and monks?*
Because they're the two easiest guilds to create using Tharsis gate's current set of skills and it's combat system! Necros can use a variety of Magic and Faith skills (not sure what Pyro's REAL plans for necromancer's were, but these are MY thoughts) and monks can use a mixture of combat (unarmed and combat.special) and faith. Neither of these proposed guilds would need to have the combat system changed just to accomodate them, and they would be very much welcomed additions to Tharsis Gate.

More thoughts on Sub-Guilds... Why do we need "mages"? I'm tired of every game in the universe using the same names for the guilds. Warriors, Priests, Thieves, Mages, Sorcerers... It's been done before millions and millions of times. Guilds should remain seperate from eachother. Sub-guilds have the potential to be fun... but the atmosphere of Tharsis Gate has already been created, and it's a great one... what's the need to change it?

And that concludes my thoughts on guilds.

Combat System
I don't need to make alot of beef about the combat system... What I'd like to emphasize is my skepticism that it really needs to be changed... Tharsis Gate is in no need of a Warrior guild, as far as I'm concerned we have them (Thieves) and don't need another warrior guild. And as far as I can tell the only reason you're changing the system is to accomodate this guild that won't even be well-accepted once it's out... I have my doubts about how you can change the system without ruining the atmosphere of Tharsis Gate, and I feel that more time and energy should be spent on making new guilds and fixing areas.

FantoM : Combat redesign has now got it's own web here

That's right I said it... FIXING areas... the areas in Tharsis are horrifying to say the least. To most player Tharsis has 5 areas, Ishtar, Bat Caves, Riva, Styl, and Caemlyn. Why? Because these areas are truly the only areas a player ever needs to visit to create an amazing character. Most high-level characters also use Pyro's Darkmoor (experience), Valley of Light and Shadow Realm (auto advances, coins, gear). There are TONS of areas in this game and all have potential to be great but are ruined by one very negative factor of the game... the EXP-gain system.

This, I feel is the one area of the game that makes Tharsis Gate as hated among the players as it is, and they don't even know it... thus they blame other things (Guild balance, downgrades, area quality... the combat system, need I go on?). The current system for gaining experience makes the game boring FAST. And the main reason for this is that you can't use guild commands because you lose A LOT of experience. I strongly feel that Tharsis Gate should adopt an exp-gain system similar to that of 3-Kingdom's and Village Rival's. I'll outline it simply...

Each mob is given a set class (level) that varies slightly (so small variance it's a non-factor). That also represents it's approximate EXP-value. While you fight the mob you can gain a very very small ammount of exp for hitting it, but you don't get the REAL experience until the mob is dead.

Now I don't feel that Tharsis Gate should completely adopt this system, as Tharsis Gate is nothing like 3-k or VR, and shouldn't be. My suggestion for a formula would be as such...

Currently EXP-gain is based approx 50% on the ammount of damage you do IN The fight, and 50% on the ammount of exp the mob is worth when it dies...

I suggest that this formula be changed to 20-25% of the exp based on damage and 80-75% basedon the mob's final value...

Now to explain the method behind my madness. Gaining experience in Tharsis Gate is BORING. Move, 'kill (mob)', get all from corpse, 'dissect/decompose' (fry isn't worth mentioning. With my suggestion followed a player who wished to use gcommands to help pass the time could do so without being so heavily penalized for it... as well, with the incentive to use gcommands to pass the time against mobs, players won't feel the strong urge to create bots (and there are a lot of players who are doing it, they make a few beep triggers and off they go, not mentioning any names cough Issac cough ). As well, with the ability to use gcommands, the hundreds of useless (and they truly are) areas within Tharsis Gate would become areas a player could explore and kill in to gain exp (because mostly, the uselessness comes from the mobs having massive ammounts of hp and being worth a measly 25k experience). Since a player can now kill these mobs faster, they can gain more exp and have a fun time exploring while doing it (thus an 8-area MUD, just with a change in the exp system becomes a big, rich, and diverse world)

More on Areas
Although my suggestions are what I feel to be exactly what Tharsis Gate needs to turn it around, you may wish to ignore it and continue on with what's not working. If this is the case I think a wizard or two should be appointed to tweaking the current areas and making them playable under current MUD conditions... I'd suggest Pyro but I know he's more keen on doing guild-work than fixing areas... however he has created (and will probably continue to create) the best areas in the MUD. In any case, a wizard should be appointed to make the changes, and Pyro should be appointed as an advisor (since he'd rather do guild work, why force him to continue on areas?). Tharsis Gate isn't currently in any need of NEW areas... what Tharsis needs is it's current areas made viable areas to goto when the other 8 areas (really only 2 areas for each step up the character-ladder) are over-populated. Also, fix rose castle... put those dudes indoors, they're in a castle for god's sake!

Not much to be said here either... they rule, we need more of them, and internet cafe players should be banned for all the quest cheating they do.

And in conclusion...
To summarize... the skill system is great, the guilds need a few minor changes, but even without changes would continue to be great, Tharsis needs two more guilds which I suggest being Necromancers and Monks. Sub-Guilds and changes to the combat system should be avoided as both of these changes would completely change the atmosphere of Tharsis Gate into being just another 3-Kingdoms or Village Rivals, and Tharsis Gate WILL lose players. Areas in play need lots of work, or my suggestions on the exp-gain system should be followed, or my suggested changes to the exp system AND tweaks to areas should occur.

-- Imanewbie

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